Preflop is whatever. Could make it bigger. But with these stacks it’s fine. Flop is great. Turn not sure what a bet accomplishes, especially trying to get value from an ace, which is odd because it’s very unlikely they have an ace since you know, you have two of them.
Fold turn though it sucks. I would’ve checked turns and called a lot of rivers
Turn bet is totally fine, can’t believe all the hate it’s getting. Advocating for a check is using the benefit of hindsight, this turn is a strong card for hero range.
Yeah, my reasoning is that there's plenty we're still ahead of that will call a bet, like any flop-float turned King, any jack with a heart, some floated AhQx, maybe T9s. Also some people seem to think that 140 into 200 is an overbet for some reason :/
This is a really good spot to be checking turn.
Kh is a major scare card for V. You have a lot more AK, KK, KQs. When V has Jx they've either improved to 2 pair or they're folding. They obviously of course can now have a flush.
Either way you'd rather check for pot control.
As played it's pretty gross. His bluffs will very often include Ah, so I think calling turn planning to call almost all non heart rivers makes some sense. Jamming makes no sense as you're just folding out his bluffs and getting snapped by flushes.
I think you need to work in your sizes, spr on future streets and gii potential, especially with Aces...
Anyway, flop size seems low to me, if V has a FD he will pay more than 1/3 pot to continue, this means you may be missing value on such boards with your overpairs.
Checking turn seems the best to me here since the FD gets there, but since your flop sizing was so small, you can't actually figure out what range V may have...
The check-raise screams flush, if you fold here nothing wrong with that, if you jam you may be drawing dead.
This is a "gross" because, IMHO, your sizings were way off...
It is certainly better than 3/4 “charging flush draws” that are making no mistake calling either bet. Good draws make mistakes calling large turn bets, not flop bets.
What are you talking about we have been getting value flush draws since 2002. You get the money in before they miss because they aren’t going to call if they brick out.
You said charging a flush draw “shouldn’t be a thing”
I don’t have to make up some hypothetical..this is about when you believe they have a flush draw, obviously
I’m just unsure how much you mean when you say charge for a flush draw. I’ve also played a lot of hands, and I can’t recall once when I ever knew that someone was on a flush draw. How is it that you know? I put people on ranges, not specific hands. What secret do you know that I don’t
There are a lot of times when you know people either have a flush draw, or a set. You use your ranges to compare the combos and play the hand accordingly.
“I” NEVER said anything about charging for a flush draw. I responded to your comment saying that we should be trying to get max value from flush draws, this is literally one of if the most profitable ways to win at poker. I have no idea why you think people stopped charging for flush draws in 2002.. but you are missing out on ALOT of value
I'm impressed you know someone has a flush draw or a set. I'm especially impressed if you knew someone had a flush draw on this board before any action was even done.
Anyway, if you are getting max value from a flush draw, what percentage of the pot should you bet? I would like to know what you actually mean.
Of course, we haven’t even discussed yet how you can be balanced with this betting strategy. And the fact when they don’t have your dreaded flush draw, but say bottom pair or a low pocket pair, you allow them to play perfectly when you would in fact want them to continue if you sized properly
Some of this post confuses me, but we’ll start with the flop stuff.
1/3 is going to be the most used cb size if we’re covering every texture. If you’re saying to use something else, what’s the reason here? You mentioned them having a flush draw, but obviously combo wise that’s one of the rarest situations on the flop with his preflop 3b call range.
I’m not saying 1/3 is right or wrong, I’m just curious how you can say it’s wrong with the explanation you gave.
I agree with u/omega_86 here. Flop bet needs to be larger since the board is so wet. Make the draws pay more to see the turn. I’m betting 60-75% of the pot here and would be content if they fold. Then I’d check the turn for pot control. Then check call the river depending on the card and sizing.
Hero bet 1/3rd pot on the flush draw and then 2/3rd pot when the potential flush is on the board. Villain has to realize that there is a very clear possibility that the OESD is drawing dead.
You need a survey option for: Don’t ever get in this position in the first place.
Aces is a terrible hand to double barrel because you block his worst calling down hands, the hands you can beat. Instead you make it more likely that when he calls he’s calling with two pair or a set. Don’t barrel the turn here. Check back and let him bring his wider range to the river where you can bet on most blanks.
They always put you on AK.
Now that he min-raises he is saying he can beat AK.
Anything he has that beats AK beats AA here.
Just fold to min-raises on the turn with 1 pair no draw unless you know villain is doing that with semi bluffs and thin value. Yes this is an exploitative fold as a field exploit (the field min raising the turn Beats 1 pair 95%+).
The minraise indicates that villain wants you to call and will shove on the river. I don't think your top pair is good anymore, especially because there is a flush and several two pair possible.
So essentially you have to call 420 to win 800. I don't think you win this often enough to call. Best case scenario villain has QT or T9. Worst case he has any suited hearts, KJ, K8 or 66/88/JJ.
Betting the turn seems ambitious to me, especially for such a large size. I would have gone larger on the flop but bet small on the turn if I was going to bet. Even your opponent’s AK isn’t loving it on the turn.
Pre is fine
Flop is fine
Turn is bad. You don't block any hearts...you can no longer improve in any way that could beat a flush....your sizing is way way way too big for what you are hoping to accomplish...and the most obvious draw got there. Check the turn and evaluate rivers. This is where positional advantage prints money. Use it.
Assuming safe rivers I'm just calling any bet 50% or less and folding to bigger bets.
As played this is a shitty fold due to misplay IMO
No point in over betting the turn you're turning your hand until a bluff when you have plenty of showdown value. That's not a good card for your hand best to check back and get to showdown as cheap as you can.
The only hand you could beat and make sense mini raising is AhK, as someone said below a mini raise is always 2 pairs minimum especially in this 3bet pre scenario
I think the flop downbet is a mistake alot of live low stakes players make. Pot is 120 and you bet 40? He's going to call with the vast majority of his range and by betting so small otf it makes your turn bet less believable. Size up always in live low stakes. Always. You're going to get called anyways if they have any hand they want to continue with, they don't always have to continue with tptk type hands.
That being said the turn does nothing for you, and is a clear fold. Especially when you could be drawing stone dead without the Ah.
I have never in my life seen a turn min raise where they don’t have atleast 2 pair (online only)
A tale as old as time. Google the “Baluga Theorem”
“You should strongly re-evaluate the strength of one-pair hands in the face of a raise on the turn.” — BalugaWhale
turn raises are even more nutted live. as are flop raises.
This being upvoted speaks volumes about the state or r/poker.
What do you mean by that? It’s not even a personal opinion just experience, nothing controversial about it
"I have never in my life seen a bluff on the turn, so I think you should fold" lol
Who the hell said that? Read the comment again, I was specifcally talking about the min raise
"I have never in my life seen a min raise bluff on the turn so I think you should fold" *
Buddy what are you talking about? No one said he should call, please stop commenting
Buddy what are you talking about? The comment said he should fold, not call. Please stop commenting.
You literally edited the second comment
I literally did not. I don't even really know what you're talking about
Preflop is whatever. Could make it bigger. But with these stacks it’s fine. Flop is great. Turn not sure what a bet accomplishes, especially trying to get value from an ace, which is odd because it’s very unlikely they have an ace since you know, you have two of them. Fold turn though it sucks. I would’ve checked turns and called a lot of rivers
So you're folding everything except for 2 pair + to min raise? Seems very exploitable
When the flush completed and he chooses a 1/3 sizing otf. Yes. Folding anything but 2 pair+ is the only answer.
Oh my bad I didn't see that the flush completed.
Anyone min raising that turn is not balancing
Turn bet is totally fine, can’t believe all the hate it’s getting. Advocating for a check is using the benefit of hindsight, this turn is a strong card for hero range.
Yeah, my reasoning is that there's plenty we're still ahead of that will call a bet, like any flop-float turned King, any jack with a heart, some floated AhQx, maybe T9s. Also some people seem to think that 140 into 200 is an overbet for some reason :/
75-85 pre.
This is a really good spot to be checking turn. Kh is a major scare card for V. You have a lot more AK, KK, KQs. When V has Jx they've either improved to 2 pair or they're folding. They obviously of course can now have a flush. Either way you'd rather check for pot control. As played it's pretty gross. His bluffs will very often include Ah, so I think calling turn planning to call almost all non heart rivers makes some sense. Jamming makes no sense as you're just folding out his bluffs and getting snapped by flushes.
What about denying equity against flush draw or getting it in good against turned nut flushdraw with some pair punters
I think you need to work in your sizes, spr on future streets and gii potential, especially with Aces... Anyway, flop size seems low to me, if V has a FD he will pay more than 1/3 pot to continue, this means you may be missing value on such boards with your overpairs. Checking turn seems the best to me here since the FD gets there, but since your flop sizing was so small, you can't actually figure out what range V may have... The check-raise screams flush, if you fold here nothing wrong with that, if you jam you may be drawing dead. This is a "gross" because, IMHO, your sizings were way off...
His flop size is not way off. At all. Depending upon his strategy. C betting 1/3 on any flop can never be that bad, and is normally quite good
It is certainly better than 3/4 “charging flush draws” that are making no mistake calling either bet. Good draws make mistakes calling large turn bets, not flop bets.
Yeh. This isn’t 2002. The charging flush draw thing shouldn’t be in your vocab.
What are you talking about we have been getting value flush draws since 2002. You get the money in before they miss because they aren’t going to call if they brick out.
Define get the money in. And how do you know they are on a flush draw
You said charging a flush draw “shouldn’t be a thing” I don’t have to make up some hypothetical..this is about when you believe they have a flush draw, obviously
I’m just unsure how much you mean when you say charge for a flush draw. I’ve also played a lot of hands, and I can’t recall once when I ever knew that someone was on a flush draw. How is it that you know? I put people on ranges, not specific hands. What secret do you know that I don’t
There are a lot of times when you know people either have a flush draw, or a set. You use your ranges to compare the combos and play the hand accordingly. “I” NEVER said anything about charging for a flush draw. I responded to your comment saying that we should be trying to get max value from flush draws, this is literally one of if the most profitable ways to win at poker. I have no idea why you think people stopped charging for flush draws in 2002.. but you are missing out on ALOT of value
I'm impressed you know someone has a flush draw or a set. I'm especially impressed if you knew someone had a flush draw on this board before any action was even done. Anyway, if you are getting max value from a flush draw, what percentage of the pot should you bet? I would like to know what you actually mean. Of course, we haven’t even discussed yet how you can be balanced with this betting strategy. And the fact when they don’t have your dreaded flush draw, but say bottom pair or a low pocket pair, you allow them to play perfectly when you would in fact want them to continue if you sized properly
Some of this post confuses me, but we’ll start with the flop stuff. 1/3 is going to be the most used cb size if we’re covering every texture. If you’re saying to use something else, what’s the reason here? You mentioned them having a flush draw, but obviously combo wise that’s one of the rarest situations on the flop with his preflop 3b call range. I’m not saying 1/3 is right or wrong, I’m just curious how you can say it’s wrong with the explanation you gave.
I agree with u/omega_86 here. Flop bet needs to be larger since the board is so wet. Make the draws pay more to see the turn. I’m betting 60-75% of the pot here and would be content if they fold. Then I’d check the turn for pot control. Then check call the river depending on the card and sizing.
I mean, would it be that strange this guy also having t9s for an oesd?
Hero bet 1/3rd pot on the flush draw and then 2/3rd pot when the potential flush is on the board. Villain has to realize that there is a very clear possibility that the OESD is drawing dead.
How do you balance that flop size there? With that flop size, how often are you checking.
I’d likely check back the turn and call most river bets/bet for value against some kind of one pair hand.
You need a survey option for: Don’t ever get in this position in the first place. Aces is a terrible hand to double barrel because you block his worst calling down hands, the hands you can beat. Instead you make it more likely that when he calls he’s calling with two pair or a set. Don’t barrel the turn here. Check back and let him bring his wider range to the river where you can bet on most blanks.
They always put you on AK. Now that he min-raises he is saying he can beat AK. Anything he has that beats AK beats AA here. Just fold to min-raises on the turn with 1 pair no draw unless you know villain is doing that with semi bluffs and thin value. Yes this is an exploitative fold as a field exploit (the field min raising the turn Beats 1 pair 95%+).
The minraise indicates that villain wants you to call and will shove on the river. I don't think your top pair is good anymore, especially because there is a flush and several two pair possible. So essentially you have to call 420 to win 800. I don't think you win this often enough to call. Best case scenario villain has QT or T9. Worst case he has any suited hearts, KJ, K8 or 66/88/JJ.
Check back turn, betting makes no sense really especially with no Ah
Bet 80+ on the flop. Jam turn yourself or check back when checked to. Either is good. Betting 140 seems bad.
Betting the turn seems ambitious to me, especially for such a large size. I would have gone larger on the flop but bet small on the turn if I was going to bet. Even your opponent’s AK isn’t loving it on the turn.
Pre is fine Flop is fine Turn is bad. You don't block any hearts...you can no longer improve in any way that could beat a flush....your sizing is way way way too big for what you are hoping to accomplish...and the most obvious draw got there. Check the turn and evaluate rivers. This is where positional advantage prints money. Use it. Assuming safe rivers I'm just calling any bet 50% or less and folding to bigger bets. As played this is a shitty fold due to misplay IMO
No point in over betting the turn you're turning your hand until a bluff when you have plenty of showdown value. That's not a good card for your hand best to check back and get to showdown as cheap as you can.
The only hand you could beat and make sense mini raising is AhK, as someone said below a mini raise is always 2 pairs minimum especially in this 3bet pre scenario
Check turn w no heart, can mix on turn with a heart
I think the flop downbet is a mistake alot of live low stakes players make. Pot is 120 and you bet 40? He's going to call with the vast majority of his range and by betting so small otf it makes your turn bet less believable. Size up always in live low stakes. Always. You're going to get called anyways if they have any hand they want to continue with, they don't always have to continue with tptk type hands. That being said the turn does nothing for you, and is a clear fold. Especially when you could be drawing stone dead without the Ah.
Preflop raise should be higher ~80, flop raise has to be higher 70-90, check the turn, call/bet the river.
Trivial fold. Why are you bombing the turn in the first place? If you’re even going to bet use a small sizing.